Supporters of the bill were greeted with silence.

The bill, which Gov. Kathleen Sebelius is expected to veto, allows Hays-based Sunflower Electric Power Corp. to reapply for an air quality permit under rules requiring the secretary of environment to approve it. It also limits the secretary's power to deny future air-quality permits and to impose new limits on pollution and greenhouse gases.

The measure is a response to the denial of an air-quality permit in October for Sunflower by Sebelius' secretary of health and environment, Rod Bremby. Sunflower wants to build the two coal-fired plants outside Holcomb, in Finney County.

Saturday's forum, moderator Ann Zimmerman said, was a response to a recent legislative forum in Salina at which a discussion about Sunflower Electric's proposed coal-fired plants became contentious.

Saturday's topics included whether there is a need for more electric power, whether climate change is a real issue in the state and the role of energy conservation.

Sen. Pete Brungardt, R-Salina, and Rep. Deena Horst, R-Salina, both said they voted twice to advance legislation to allow coal plant construction because of the need for a reliable source of inexpensive energy.

"The alternatives are pretty stark," Brungardt said. "If we want to have reliable energy at an economically acceptable price for both consumers and for industry, we've got to use what's available, and we've got to stay competitive. That said, we want to make as few long-term negative effects as we can."

Horst said Sunflower might be able to scale down its project, building a smaller coal-fired plant. But she said a plant is necessary.

"I do think base load is something that we've got to look at," Horst said. "At this point, wind energy cannot be base load. It is not efficient enough to do that. We don't have a way to store it."

She noted that 13 percent of the energy generated by Sunflower Electric and its consortium comes from renewable sources.

"They're trying to be green, also, and have been for quite some time," she said.

One member of the audience asked whether legislators were concerned that the bulk of the power to be generated by the proposed Sunflower plants would be sent out of state.

Rep. Charlie Roth, R-Salina, said Sunflower needs to generate the extra energy and sell it to help pay for construction of the plant.

Horst said she was concerned, at first, about energy being exported. But then she started thinking about how the state exports corn and other produce -- so why not energy? If Kansas exports energy, the money stays in the state, she said; if the state would purchase energy from a plant built elsewhere, she said, the money would go out of the state.

Svaty said his concern was with how Sunflower and its partners keep changing their plans, possibly in an effort to gain votes in the Legislature.

Initially, he said, legislators were told the two plants would be owned by Tri-State, which is a large cooperative partnering with Sunflower on the project. Sunflower was to have access to 200 megawatts of the power generated by the second plant, Svaty said. Tri-State officials said money generated by those two plants would be used, in five years, to construct a third plant to supply the needs of Tri-State.

About three weeks ago, Svaty said, Tri-State officials said they didn't think they'd need a third plant. And Svaty said he was told three days ago by Tri-State officials that Sunflower would have access to 200 megawatts of power from the first plant, not the second.

"They are good people. They are honest people," Svaty said. "But the story has shifted substantially since they have begun the process in the Legislature. I don't exactly know how much base load power Sunflower needs. I don't know how much base load power Tri-State needs."

Duane Schrag, a Salina Journal reporter, asked whether legislators had information about the growth in demand for electricity, and what could be done to promote efficiency.

Svaty said newer, energy-efficient air conditioners and better windows and insulation in homes could greatly reduce energy demand in the high-usage summer months. But there has to be some incentive before people will make those changes.

He talked about "smart meters" that would show consumers, in dollars, what they're paying for power each day.

Horst noted that the Salina School District was able to save on energy costs by hiring an "energy czar," who monitored classrooms and offices to make sure computers and monitors and lights were turned off when not in use.

Brungardt said consumers will have to see some benefit to themselves for conserving energy -- or some negative effect if they don't -- before they'll make changes.

All of the legislators said Kansans should expect to be affected by climate change.

"I learned very early, on the farm, there's a cause and effect to everything," Svaty said. "You can't do anything in abundance and not think it's going to change something."

He said there's no doubt that the extraction of fossil fuels and pumping of carbon into the atmosphere has had an effect.

"When we create chemical reactions, it changes the environment," Svaty said. "I do believe that is causing the earth to warm. I think that we have to do something about that. ... We have to begin to look for ways in which we can extract power without making such great and enormous chemical reactions that alter our environment."

Horst cautioned that whatever is done about climate change, it has to be affordable.

"We don't want people who are unable to afford to pay for the highest type of energy costs to feel as though they can't afford to heat their homes," she said.

She said people are going to have to be willing to change -- to recycle, to conserve -- in order to have an effect.

Roth also said people have to weigh the availability of reliable energy at a reasonable cost against possible negative effects on the environment.

nReporter Sharon Montague can be reached at 822-1411 or by e-mail at smontague@salina.com.